Comments on: The Problem with the Scientist Mindset http://travelingforever.com/blogs/2006/12/the-problem-with-the-scientist-mindset/ Change the world, one journey at a time. Sat, 11 Oct 2008 23:46:01 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.2 By: Scott http://travelingforever.com/blogs/2006/12/the-problem-with-the-scientist-mindset/#comment-39490 Scott Wed, 19 Mar 2008 21:48:31 +0000 http://travelingforever.com/blogs/?p=54#comment-39490 1 year and 4 months late but oh well... I think what you're getting at is more along the lines of organic, ethical farming for the benefit of the soul. Science does not exist in this context, because issues of the soul are beyond it's capacity. It's like using a hammer to mend clothing. Religion IS seperate from science... while a scientist may be religious the two do not effect eachother beyond the issue of what exactly the scientist wishes to research or participate in. You're also looking at scientists and experts in the wrong way. Scientists and experts provide information to people who wish to deeply understand the whole picture because all that investigation usually boils down to the verification of a simple claim. Like you say, the use of NPK is beneficial to plants but not good in the long term for the soil... it would have been a scientist who verified that claim... and while his research may have been long winded, we can shorten it down to less than a sentence. The important thing to remember here is that scientists are not the ones who make the decisions... they simply feed information to the people who have the wider view, for instance the farmer, so that they can make the informed decisions with their newfound greater understanding of the wider picture. It can be said that while we may be able to look at the wider picture, it is only when we study it closely that we can fully appreciate it's true majesty. Seeing a clock is an everyday thing, but it's much more fascinating to take one apart and begin to understand how it works... and from then on maybe seeing a clock on the wall might be that bit more significant to us. While I agree that there is indeed a problem with the scientist mindset... I do not feel you have put your finger on it just yet. 1 year and 4 months late but oh well…
I think what you’re getting at is more along the lines of organic, ethical farming for the benefit of the soul. Science does not exist in this context, because issues of the soul are beyond it’s capacity. It’s like using a hammer to mend clothing. Religion IS seperate from science… while a scientist may be religious the two do not effect eachother beyond the issue of what exactly the scientist wishes to research or participate in.

You’re also looking at scientists and experts in the wrong way. Scientists and experts provide information to people who wish to deeply understand the whole picture because all that investigation usually boils down to the verification of a simple claim. Like you say, the use of NPK is beneficial to plants but not good in the long term for the soil… it would have been a scientist who verified that claim… and while his research may have been long winded, we can shorten it down to less than a sentence. The important thing to remember here is that scientists are not the ones who make the decisions… they simply feed information to the people who have the wider view, for instance the farmer, so that they can make the informed decisions with their newfound greater understanding of the wider picture.

It can be said that while we may be able to look at the wider picture, it is only when we study it closely that we can fully appreciate it’s true majesty. Seeing a clock is an everyday thing, but it’s much more fascinating to take one apart and begin to understand how it works… and from then on maybe seeing a clock on the wall might be that bit more significant to us.

While I agree that there is indeed a problem with the scientist mindset… I do not feel you have put your finger on it just yet.

]]> By: Stankles http://travelingforever.com/blogs/2006/12/the-problem-with-the-scientist-mindset/#comment-7484 Stankles Mon, 11 Dec 2006 16:02:31 +0000 http://travelingforever.com/blogs/?p=54#comment-7484 MaxPolum, No, this post does not display a great igonorance of science. I have been a gardner for 4 years. Two years of that working on large organic farms, where I saw this happen firsthand. If there's one thing I've learned, it's that the expert knows nothing compared to someone applying results every day. The agriculturalists I've met know very little about biology and genetics <em>in application to</em> running a productive farm. They study the nutrients necessary for a productive soil, but never look at the <em>biological systems</em> necessary for a productive soil. They come from a close minded approach, one where plants take in chemical inputs and sun and water, and create vegetables. In reality, though, there is a biological process that creates a healthy soil, and a healthy soil creates a healthy plant. Agriculturalists will learn that there are three primary nutrients necessary for farm production, Nitrogen, Potasium, and Phosphorus. (Or NPK.) Because we have the technology, they will advise farmers to directly apply Nitrogen, Potasium, and Phosphorus to their plants. The result is that the biological process is skipped, and the soil quality suffers, eventually the plant quality suffers too. Again, I've seen this firsthand. Why are you so scared of the idea of myth? Does the idea of greek gods really take a hold and subjugate your mind that much? Do quote like: "If you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destry you." really scare you that much? Really have that deleterious of an effect on humanity? Grow up, get over your hatred of religion, look at it honestly, and see the good in it. MaxPolum,

No, this post does not display a great igonorance of science. I have been a gardner for 4 years. Two years of that working on large organic farms, where I saw this happen firsthand. If there’s one thing I’ve learned, it’s that the expert knows nothing compared to someone applying results every day.

The agriculturalists I’ve met know very little about biology and genetics in application to running a productive farm. They study the nutrients necessary for a productive soil, but never look at the biological systems necessary for a productive soil. They come from a close minded approach, one where plants take in chemical inputs and sun and water, and create vegetables. In reality, though, there is a biological process that creates a healthy soil, and a healthy soil creates a healthy plant.

Agriculturalists will learn that there are three primary nutrients necessary for farm production, Nitrogen, Potasium, and Phosphorus. (Or NPK.) Because we have the technology, they will advise farmers to directly apply Nitrogen, Potasium, and Phosphorus to their plants. The result is that the biological process is skipped, and the soil quality suffers, eventually the plant quality suffers too. Again, I’ve seen this firsthand.

Why are you so scared of the idea of myth? Does the idea of greek gods really take a hold and subjugate your mind that much? Do quote like:

“If you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destry you.”
really scare you that much? Really have that deleterious of an effect on humanity? Grow up, get over your hatred of religion, look at it honestly, and see the good in it.

]]> By: MaxPolun http://travelingforever.com/blogs/2006/12/the-problem-with-the-scientist-mindset/#comment-7481 MaxPolun Mon, 11 Dec 2006 15:27:57 +0000 http://travelingforever.com/blogs/?p=54#comment-7481 I think this post displays a great ignorance of science. examples: - I guarantee you that geneticists doing work on agriculteral plants know a lot about agriculture - I also guarantee that agriculteralists know a lot about biology and genetics. -science is not afraid of religion, most scientists are rarely think about religion, though there are some that are religious, some that are not. I agree that in of it self science has no morality, it is simply the pusuit of knowledge, however most scientists and engineers (who are more relevant to the discoussion, as it is engineers who apply science) do spend time thinking about the ethics of their work, and ethics trainng is required at many labs. It's not a perfect method, but I don't see that religion has much better to offer. Religion was conceved long before any of the modern scientific ethics issues could even be thought of, as no concept for them existed, and religion has nothing to say on them. Oh, yes people have interpereted the bible to speak one way or another on various issues, but at that point you can basically make the bible say whatever you want. This argument also applies to other religions than christianity. I think this post displays a great ignorance of science. examples:
- I guarantee you that geneticists doing work on agriculteral plants know a lot about agriculture
- I also guarantee that agriculteralists know a lot about biology and genetics.
-science is not afraid of religion, most scientists are rarely think about religion, though there are some that are religious, some that are not.

I agree that in of it self science has no morality, it is simply the pusuit of knowledge, however most scientists and engineers (who are more relevant to the discoussion, as it is engineers who apply science) do spend time thinking about the ethics of their work, and ethics trainng is required at many labs. It’s not a perfect method, but I don’t see that religion has much better to offer. Religion was conceved long before any of the modern scientific ethics issues could even be thought of, as no concept for them existed, and religion has nothing to say on them. Oh, yes people have interpereted the bible to speak one way or another on various issues, but at that point you can basically make the bible say whatever you want. This argument also applies to other religions than christianity.

]]> By: ChemBob http://travelingforever.com/blogs/2006/12/the-problem-with-the-scientist-mindset/#comment-7471 ChemBob Mon, 11 Dec 2006 10:51:47 +0000 http://travelingforever.com/blogs/?p=54#comment-7471 We don't need myths, we need better education that includes a gestaltic comprehension of mankind's past and current situation and encourages open debate on where we want to go from this point and how to get there. Science provides the best method available for how to get there and the only means of separating fantasy from reality, a separation that is greatly lacking in the majority of people in the US. Ergo, we need the scientific method to be taught and understood; it's as important as learning to read. The last thing we need is more religion, with its mythological dogmas that serve only to enslave the masses, through fear, to the benefit of a few overlords. We don’t need myths, we need better education that includes a gestaltic comprehension of mankind’s past and current situation and encourages open debate on where we want to go from this point and how to get there. Science provides the best method available for how to get there and the only means of separating fantasy from reality, a separation that is greatly lacking in the majority of people in the US. Ergo, we need the scientific method to be taught and understood; it’s as important as learning to read. The last thing we need is more religion, with its mythological dogmas that serve only to enslave the masses, through fear, to the benefit of a few overlords.

]]> By: Stankles http://travelingforever.com/blogs/2006/12/the-problem-with-the-scientist-mindset/#comment-7334 Stankles Fri, 08 Dec 2006 15:03:49 +0000 http://travelingforever.com/blogs/?p=54#comment-7334 Kevin, The scientific mindset sees no value in myths for the human body of knowledge. Science itself is a progression towards a hypothetical absolute truth. Only we've yet to get to any absolute truths. I'm saying that we need a grand view of where we should be going, and where we want to be, and myths are the best way to communicate that. Pure knowledge is meaningless without wisdom behind it. Science lacks wisdom. Or a method to find and incorporate it. I'm not saying science is fundamentally worthless, I'm saying that the body of an idea that has brought humanity this far has no soul, and that it desperately needs one. Where do we want science to take us? Kevin,

The scientific mindset sees no value in myths for the human body of knowledge. Science itself is a progression towards a hypothetical absolute truth. Only we’ve yet to get to any absolute truths. I’m saying that we need a grand view of where we should be going, and where we want to be, and myths are the best way to communicate that.

Pure knowledge is meaningless without wisdom behind it. Science lacks wisdom. Or a method to find and incorporate it.

I’m not saying science is fundamentally worthless, I’m saying that the body of an idea that has brought humanity this far has no soul, and that it desperately needs one.

Where do we want science to take us?

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