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	<title>Comments on: The Problem with the Scientist Mindset</title>
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	<link>http://travelingforever.com/blogs/2006/12/the-problem-with-the-scientist-mindset/</link>
	<description>Change the world, one journey at a time.</description>
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		<title>By: Stankles</title>
		<link>http://travelingforever.com/blogs/2006/12/the-problem-with-the-scientist-mindset/comment-page-1/#comment-7484</link>
		<dc:creator>Stankles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Dec 2006 16:02:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://travelingforever.com/blogs/?p=54#comment-7484</guid>
		<description>MaxPolum,

No, this post does not display a great igonorance of science. I have been a gardner for 4 years. Two years of that working on large organic farms, where I saw this happen firsthand. If there&#039;s one thing I&#039;ve learned, it&#039;s that the expert knows nothing compared to someone applying results every day.

The agriculturalists I&#039;ve met know very little about biology and genetics &lt;em&gt;in application to&lt;/em&gt; running a productive farm. They study the nutrients necessary for a productive soil, but never look at the &lt;em&gt;biological systems&lt;/em&gt; necessary for a productive soil. They come from a close minded approach, one where plants take in chemical inputs and sun and water, and create vegetables. In reality, though, there is a biological process that creates a healthy soil, and a healthy soil creates a healthy plant.

Agriculturalists will learn that there are three primary nutrients necessary for farm production, Nitrogen, Potasium, and Phosphorus. (Or NPK.) Because we have the technology, they will advise farmers to directly apply Nitrogen, Potasium, and Phosphorus to their plants. The result is that the biological process is skipped, and the soil quality suffers, eventually the plant quality suffers too. Again, I&#039;ve seen this firsthand.

Why are you so scared of the idea of myth? Does the idea of greek gods really take a hold and subjugate your mind that much? Do quote like:

&quot;If you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destry you.&quot;
really scare you that much? Really have that deleterious of an effect on humanity? Grow up, get over your hatred of religion, look at it honestly, and see the good in it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MaxPolum,</p>
<p>No, this post does not display a great igonorance of science. I have been a gardner for 4 years. Two years of that working on large organic farms, where I saw this happen firsthand. If there&#8217;s one thing I&#8217;ve learned, it&#8217;s that the expert knows nothing compared to someone applying results every day.</p>
<p>The agriculturalists I&#8217;ve met know very little about biology and genetics <em>in application to</em> running a productive farm. They study the nutrients necessary for a productive soil, but never look at the <em>biological systems</em> necessary for a productive soil. They come from a close minded approach, one where plants take in chemical inputs and sun and water, and create vegetables. In reality, though, there is a biological process that creates a healthy soil, and a healthy soil creates a healthy plant.</p>
<p>Agriculturalists will learn that there are three primary nutrients necessary for farm production, Nitrogen, Potasium, and Phosphorus. (Or NPK.) Because we have the technology, they will advise farmers to directly apply Nitrogen, Potasium, and Phosphorus to their plants. The result is that the biological process is skipped, and the soil quality suffers, eventually the plant quality suffers too. Again, I&#8217;ve seen this firsthand.</p>
<p>Why are you so scared of the idea of myth? Does the idea of greek gods really take a hold and subjugate your mind that much? Do quote like:</p>
<p>&#8220;If you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destry you.&#8221;<br />
really scare you that much? Really have that deleterious of an effect on humanity? Grow up, get over your hatred of religion, look at it honestly, and see the good in it.</p>
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		<title>By: MaxPolun</title>
		<link>http://travelingforever.com/blogs/2006/12/the-problem-with-the-scientist-mindset/comment-page-1/#comment-7481</link>
		<dc:creator>MaxPolun</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Dec 2006 15:27:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://travelingforever.com/blogs/?p=54#comment-7481</guid>
		<description>I think this post displays a great ignorance of science. examples:
- I guarantee you that geneticists doing work on agriculteral plants know a lot about agriculture
- I also guarantee that agriculteralists know a lot about biology and genetics.
-science is not afraid of religion, most scientists are rarely think about religion, though there are some that are religious, some that are not.

I agree that in of it self science has no morality, it is simply the pusuit of knowledge, however most scientists and engineers (who are more relevant to the discoussion, as it is engineers who apply science) do spend time thinking about the ethics of their work, and ethics trainng is required at many labs. It&#039;s not a perfect method, but I don&#039;t see that religion has much better to offer. Religion was conceved long before any of the modern scientific ethics issues could even be thought of, as no concept for them existed, and religion has nothing to say on them. Oh, yes people have interpereted the bible to speak one way or another on various issues, but at that point you can basically make the bible say whatever you want. This argument also applies to other religions than christianity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think this post displays a great ignorance of science. examples:<br />
- I guarantee you that geneticists doing work on agriculteral plants know a lot about agriculture<br />
- I also guarantee that agriculteralists know a lot about biology and genetics.<br />
-science is not afraid of religion, most scientists are rarely think about religion, though there are some that are religious, some that are not.</p>
<p>I agree that in of it self science has no morality, it is simply the pusuit of knowledge, however most scientists and engineers (who are more relevant to the discoussion, as it is engineers who apply science) do spend time thinking about the ethics of their work, and ethics trainng is required at many labs. It&#8217;s not a perfect method, but I don&#8217;t see that religion has much better to offer. Religion was conceved long before any of the modern scientific ethics issues could even be thought of, as no concept for them existed, and religion has nothing to say on them. Oh, yes people have interpereted the bible to speak one way or another on various issues, but at that point you can basically make the bible say whatever you want. This argument also applies to other religions than christianity.</p>
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		<title>By: ChemBob</title>
		<link>http://travelingforever.com/blogs/2006/12/the-problem-with-the-scientist-mindset/comment-page-1/#comment-7471</link>
		<dc:creator>ChemBob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Dec 2006 10:51:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://travelingforever.com/blogs/?p=54#comment-7471</guid>
		<description>We don&#039;t need myths, we need better education that includes a gestaltic comprehension of mankind&#039;s past and current situation and encourages open debate on where we want to go from this point and how to get there. Science provides the best method available for how to get there and the only means of separating fantasy from reality, a separation that is greatly lacking in the majority of people in the US. Ergo, we need the scientific method to be taught and understood; it&#039;s as important as learning to read. The last thing we need is more religion, with its mythological dogmas that serve only to enslave the masses, through fear, to the benefit of a few overlords.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We don&#8217;t need myths, we need better education that includes a gestaltic comprehension of mankind&#8217;s past and current situation and encourages open debate on where we want to go from this point and how to get there. Science provides the best method available for how to get there and the only means of separating fantasy from reality, a separation that is greatly lacking in the majority of people in the US. Ergo, we need the scientific method to be taught and understood; it&#8217;s as important as learning to read. The last thing we need is more religion, with its mythological dogmas that serve only to enslave the masses, through fear, to the benefit of a few overlords.</p>
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		<title>By: Stankles</title>
		<link>http://travelingforever.com/blogs/2006/12/the-problem-with-the-scientist-mindset/comment-page-1/#comment-7334</link>
		<dc:creator>Stankles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Dec 2006 15:03:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://travelingforever.com/blogs/?p=54#comment-7334</guid>
		<description>Kevin,

The scientific mindset sees no value in myths for the human body of knowledge. Science itself is a progression towards a hypothetical absolute truth. Only we&#039;ve yet to get to any absolute truths. I&#039;m saying that we need a grand view of where we should be going, and where we want to be, and myths are the best way to communicate that. 

Pure knowledge is meaningless without wisdom behind it. Science lacks wisdom. Or a method to find and incorporate it.

I&#039;m not saying science is fundamentally worthless, I&#039;m saying that the body of an idea that has brought humanity this far has no soul, and that it desperately needs one.

Where do we want science to take us?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kevin,</p>
<p>The scientific mindset sees no value in myths for the human body of knowledge. Science itself is a progression towards a hypothetical absolute truth. Only we&#8217;ve yet to get to any absolute truths. I&#8217;m saying that we need a grand view of where we should be going, and where we want to be, and myths are the best way to communicate that. </p>
<p>Pure knowledge is meaningless without wisdom behind it. Science lacks wisdom. Or a method to find and incorporate it.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not saying science is fundamentally worthless, I&#8217;m saying that the body of an idea that has brought humanity this far has no soul, and that it desperately needs one.</p>
<p>Where do we want science to take us?</p>
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		<title>By: kevin</title>
		<link>http://travelingforever.com/blogs/2006/12/the-problem-with-the-scientist-mindset/comment-page-1/#comment-7311</link>
		<dc:creator>kevin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Dec 2006 04:25:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://travelingforever.com/blogs/?p=54#comment-7311</guid>
		<description>You&#039;re wrong. Sorry. Flat out wrong. Science isn&#039;t afraid of religion. Religion is afraid of science. But even moreso, you present this as science or religion - it&#039;s a false dichotomy. While religion is a faith, science is a method. Science is a way of learning, of cataloguing, of understanding. It never, ever claims to explain anything beyond what is presented before the observer. We, as humans, are simply always enhancing our ability to observe. 

You say there is no underlying purpose to science, no morality. This is akin to asking what the underlying purpose and morality is of a hammer, or a fishing pole. Of course there isn&#039;t one, they are tools. Science is a tool. 

The only problem that occurs in your scenario above is that the &quot;frankenfood&quot; is rushed to make a profit - but that isn&#039;t the scientist&#039;s doing. That isn&#039;t what they intended. That&#039;s corporate greed. That&#039;s not elitism of knowledge, its exploitation by the rich. The scientists are the victim as much as the alleged stomach cancer victims. 

So don&#039;t go railing against the scientific mindset. You&#039;re comparing apples to oranges, or really, apples to pillows. Science vs. Religion is a false dichotomy. They are about different things. They are different things. Religion is about giving answers. Science is about finding them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re wrong. Sorry. Flat out wrong. Science isn&#8217;t afraid of religion. Religion is afraid of science. But even moreso, you present this as science or religion &#8211; it&#8217;s a false dichotomy. While religion is a faith, science is a method. Science is a way of learning, of cataloguing, of understanding. It never, ever claims to explain anything beyond what is presented before the observer. We, as humans, are simply always enhancing our ability to observe. </p>
<p>You say there is no underlying purpose to science, no morality. This is akin to asking what the underlying purpose and morality is of a hammer, or a fishing pole. Of course there isn&#8217;t one, they are tools. Science is a tool. </p>
<p>The only problem that occurs in your scenario above is that the &#8220;frankenfood&#8221; is rushed to make a profit &#8211; but that isn&#8217;t the scientist&#8217;s doing. That isn&#8217;t what they intended. That&#8217;s corporate greed. That&#8217;s not elitism of knowledge, its exploitation by the rich. The scientists are the victim as much as the alleged stomach cancer victims. </p>
<p>So don&#8217;t go railing against the scientific mindset. You&#8217;re comparing apples to oranges, or really, apples to pillows. Science vs. Religion is a false dichotomy. They are about different things. They are different things. Religion is about giving answers. Science is about finding them.</p>
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